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Katharine Hayhoe, The Nature Conservancy and Christian Braneon, NASA GISS, on Yahoo Finance's AMS 2021

Understanding climate change and its effects, with Katharine Hayhoe The Nature Conservancy Chief Scientist & Christian Braneon NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies Columbia University Climate School

Video transcript

RICK NEWMAN: Katharine Hayhoe is The Nature Conservancy's new chief scientist and a political science professor at Texas Tech University. As a leading authority on climate science, Professor Hayhoe has been named a UN champion of the Earth and one of Time Magazine's 100 most influential people. She's been a lead author for several US national climate assessments. And she hosts the PBS series global weirding. Hayhoe is also author of the new book Saving Us.

Christian Braneon is a climate scientist at NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies. He's also a visiting professor in the Environmental Science department at New York's Barnard College.

Hey, everybody. I'm Rick Newman. And we've got two terrific climate scientists here. Thank you, both, for joining. But I'm not going to ask you about climate, excuse me, about science. First, I want to ask you about getting people to buy the science. So Katharine Hayhoe, I'd like to start with you. In your new book, you say that only 7% of people have what you call dismissive. People who will never be persuaded that we need to act on climate change and on global warming, which suggests 93% of everybody is willing to hear out what we ought to be doing about this, and yet that's obviously not the case. I mean, we're massively divided on whether there's a crisis if there is a crisis, what should we do. So you delved into this in your book. Can you just tell us your views on how do we get more people to understand what's going on and do something about it?

KATHARINE HAYHOE: Well, you answered your question yourself, I think. Because the biggest problem we have is not lack of facts. We have known since the 1800s that digging up coal back then and oil and gas today are producing heat trapping gases that are wrapping an extra blanket around the planet, causing it to warm. What are we missing? We don't understand how it affects us, why it matters to us here and now today in ways that are relevant to each one of us. And we don't know what to do about it. So that's why when we have these conversations, it's so important to talk about how climate change is affecting us here and now in ways that matter. And there are real solutions that are good for us, clean up the air, grow jobs provide food and clean water. Oh, and fix climate change along the way.

RICK NEWMAN: Christian Braneon, you've been involved in some research into the costs the real world costs in terms of health outcomes, deaths, and other things like that. Why don't you tell us a little bit about that?

CHRISTIAN BRANEON: Well, you know, a lot of people don't realize that the deadliest weather has in the United States is actually extreme heat. You know, folks are dying because of the increased frequency of heat waves. Heat waves are becoming more intense. Heat waves are lasting longer. Heat waves are causing folks to be hospitalized and causing folks to have a lower quality of life. And right now, even though only about 350 cities are experiencing average summertime highs around the world for about 95% degrees Fahrenheit, we expect by 2050 that over 900 cities globally will experience these ridiculous extremely high temperatures. The urban population, in particular, exposed to extreme heat will reach one and a half billion, we project by mid-century.

So I think if we focus more on the folks that are actually the victims from climate change, and we have a lot of confidence from global climate models in terms of what's going to happen, in terms of heat and heat waves, we can kind of get folks attention. Because we all kind of have a connection to extreme heat. We all have a connection to heat waves. These are the things we've all experienced. And we have to take note that the urban poor folks living in poverty and cities will be disproportionately affected. Now we expect over 10 to 15 million people to be suffering from extreme heat, and in poverty, in cities.

RICK NEWMAN: So why is there such a big gap between what the science is telling us and what's actually happening in the real world? And we're seeing this play out in Washington right now. I mean, Joe Biden took office promising unprecedented efforts to address climate change that is getting watered down as we speak. A lot of climate activists are saying they're very disappointed in the direction that these bills in Congress are going, which we're going to be the first big effort to do something about is how do we close this gap, how do we get from getting people to understand the crisis to getting governments and individuals in their own lives to start doing something about this. I mean, like tangible ways to close this gap.

KATHARINE HAYHOE: One of the biggest things we can do--

RICK NEWMAN: Katharine, go ahead

KATHARINE HAYHOE: Oh, sure. One of the biggest things we can do is what we're not doing. And we are literally not talking about this issue. Only 14% of people have had a conversation about the issue in a week. 34% ever hear anybody else talk about it occasionally, let alone themselves. Why? Because we don't understand why it matters, and we don't know what to do to fix it. So ultimately, politicians respond to the will of the people ultimately.

But right now, as Christian referred to, we know that those who are bearing the brunt of the impacts of a changing climate are not those who are profiting from the fossil fuel emissions that are the primary cause of these changes. And so until people realize and mobilize and use their voice to advocate for action to say this matters to every single one of us, no matter where we live, it's affecting us here today, that's what we need to get the will to fix this thing.

CHRISTIAN BRANEON: And I would add--

RICK NEWMAN: Christian, you've worked in a-- go ahead. Go ahead, Christian.

CHRISTIAN BRANEON: I'm just going to say, you know, I'd add that, you know, we need to highlight the inequities in our current systems for distributing aid after extreme weather events. You know, right now, federal disaster aid tends to go to the most wealthy. It tends to go to people that identify as white. It's not necessarily going to the folks that need it most. And this is kind of affecting me firsthand as I have family in New Orleans, and also originally grew up in Houston actually. You know, a lot of this allocation of aid is based on cost benefit calculations that are meant to minimize taxpayer risk. But this can actually allow rich people to get richer, and poor people to stay poor. And really, low income folks are going to come back after disaster in a different way than wealthy folks. So I think we need to highlight some of these inequalities around wealth and equity. And I think that could bring more attention to climate action.

RICK NEWMAN: Let me ask you both this question. Christian, to you first, since you mentioned New Orleans, do we need to get into a situation where we are forcing people to move, people just live in places that cannot be defended against climate change, such as some of the low lying areas in Southern Louisiana? And how do we even start that? Christian, go ahead.

CHRISTIAN BRANEON: Well, you know, I've been encouraging my family in New Orleans to move for many years. But like many people, they're attached to their communities. They're attached to their homes. They're really invested, you know, in staying where they are. And so I think we need to give people the opportunity to leave. I think we need to give them options and have community led retreat where we give both options over a period of time.

And maybe in ten years, they're not ready to move. But maybe in 20 years, they may be. We do need to back away from the coast and overall. And I think what we need to do is actually proactively set up areas with affordable housing before the real estate market catches up and kind of fully understands the risk on the coast. Too many human beings live on the coast right now were exposed to just, you know, exorbitant amounts of climate risk. And so, yes, we do need to retreat, but we need to give communities options in terms of how that strategic relocation happens.

RICK NEWMAN: Katharine, what do you think about this idea of the cost of defending against climate change in communities where people have roots? Is it worth the cost?

KATHARINE HAYHOE: Well, I think that Christian really pointed out that it is about communities. And we see many Native American tribes already today from Louisiana to Alaska looking at community managed retreats. So how can we relocate not a single home or a single family but our entire community? Because that is part of our identity. That is our home. And that is increasingly an uncomfortable conversation that we are going to have to have more and more. Because around the world 700 million people, including 2/3 of the world's largest cities are in the low elevation coastal zone. And sea level now is rising twice as fast as it was 25 years ago. We are all at risk. And we know that cutting emissions is absolutely essential to avoid the even more dangerous impacts if we don't.

RICK NEWMAN: Let me ask you about wealthy people who own coastal real estate. I mean, rich people have a lot of homes on the beach that are directly threatened by rising seas. And you know, when a problem shows up in the backyards of wealthy people who pay the lobbyists, who get Congress to write the laws the way they do, suddenly things might start to change. I mean, based on what you guys know about where this is heading, are we going to see that type of development in coastal areas where wealth of people are looking around like, hey, the water's coming up on my front porch, I guess we ought to do something about this. Katharine, what do you think about that?

KATHARINE HAYHOE: Well, we're already starting to see that. So the oil and gas industry in the Gulf Coast has asked for federal relief from climate impacts. We already see in Florida, for example, Zillow did a study where they found that coastal properties were starting to drop by 7%, the cost of those coastal properties relative to their inland neighbors. So we are already seeing this. But it's as if we are a frog in water that is heating up slowly. If we just wait until everybody catches on, it's going to be too late. And that's why the time to act is now. And that's why we scientists are sounding the alarm as constantly and continuously and creatively as we can.

CHRISTIAN BRANEON: Yeah, I think Katharine is absolutely right. And you know, what really concerns me is that some of those low income folks don't have the option of easily retreating from the coast are changing where they live, right? So I think we need to be a little bit preemptive. And before everyone catches on, think about encouraging development that's inland, encouraging development with meaningfully affordable housing, not affordable housing that's based on some algorithm, but affordable housing that means that folks that are low income can actually afford it. And if we do incentivize development that's up land, that's away from the coast, and make sure that there's affordable housing, we can actually create equity in our society by simultaneously improving climate resilience for everyone.

RICK NEWMAN: I live in the suburbs outside of New York City. And I've developed something informal I call the leaf blower index. Anybody who lives in the suburbs at this point knows that these things just blow constantly. It's all you hear sometimes during an even day in the summer or the fall. And I'm one of those people who goes around and yells at the landscapers, or the people using them and tries to get them to stop and do something else. But they won't stop. So I did notice that one landscaping company that I've yelled at did for a while, convert over from the gas powered one to the electric powered one. And I'm just-- the thing that just amazes me is that so few people seem to care. I mean, these are really obnoxious pollution machines on top of the noise. Why do so few people care about this kind of stuff?

KATHARINE HAYHOE: We see it as just the way things are. And we are blind to the impacts of our fossil fuel use. Around the world, air pollution from fossil fuels alone is responsible for nearly nine million deaths per year. That is almost double COVID. And it's happening every year. But who is bearing the brunt of those impacts? Here in the United States, it's low income neighborhoods. It's developing countries abroad. Those who are bearing the brunt of the impacts are not the ones who are paying the price. And often too, we don't know that there are alternatives.

So you talking to people makes a difference. People seeing the electric leaf blowers makes a difference. Because what that's doing is it's changing social norms. It's showing people there's a different way to do things and be than they're used to be. And social norms are starting to change with clean energy, with plug-in cars, with electrically flowers, with sustainable agricultural practices. But those are still in the pioneer phase, and they need to move more quickly. Not just at the individual level, but the level of our entire system.

RICK NEWMAN: How do we make it move more quickly? Christian, I'll go to you on that.

CHRISTIAN BRANEON: Well, you know, I think it depends on the audience, you know. I think for younger folks the more we can describe the climate justice challenges associated climate change, I think we'll get more buy in. You know, there's some real deep connections between climate change and climate justice. Because fundamentally, the wealthiest nations in the world colonized some of the low income countries in the world, right, and extracted humans as well as natural resources. But we also see climate justice challenges at the local scale within countries, within cities. And young people really want to do something about inequality and inequity in society.

So you know, what I'm doing at the climate school is really encouraging faculty to make sure they make it clear that inequality and inequity connections between climate change as well as our response to climate change through mitigation and adaptation, and making sure that folks really appreciate that it's not just by chance that the most vulnerable people in marshlands people are affected more by climate change. This is actually a manifestation that's continued due to racist policies in the past, like redlining and through just our nation's being kind of founded on myths like white supremacy.

RICK NEWMAN: We've got this big global climate conference coming up. It's called COP26. Nobody knows what COP26 means. I believe that stands for Conference of the Parties. This seems very arcane to a lot of people. What can people do to feel like they are making some meaningful contribution to this movement that is getting started in events, such as the upcoming COP26, but just seems so beyond what anybody can do in their real lives? They really don't even know where to start. Katharine, I'll start with you on that.

KATHARINE HAYHOE: You're so right, Rick. The number one thing that we are missing is a sense of efficacy. We don't think that anything we do will make a difference. But the world has changed before. And when it changed, it was when individual people use their voices to talk about how the world could be different. The world should be different. The world must be different. And here's how it happens. So every one of us, we don't only have a carbon footprint as people often talk about. We also have a climate shadow. And our shadow is much bigger than our footprint. What is our shadow? It is our sphere of influence.

Every one of US works somewhere. We live somewhere. We engage with community organizations, or places of worship, or school kids groups, or sports teams. All of us engage with people beyond our own personal boundaries. And when we use our voice to advocate for change in our place of work, in the place where we live, in the district we live in, whatever group or organization we're part of, use your voice to advocate for change and look for examples of how that change has already happened. Whether it's a sports team, or a school, or a church, there are examples of ones that have already changed and things that we can do too to be part of that change. And those small actions gather together, including using our voice to speak to our elected officials. Of course, that's a huge part of it. And that is how we can truly all have a difference.

RICK NEWMAN: Well, I invite anybody who wants too to come to my neighborhood and yell at the leaf blower guys with me, because it gets kind of lonely sometimes. But let me turn over to, just in a couple of minutes we have left, the big policy debate that's happening in Washington. Christian, you have worked in the government before. What do you think are, let's just say, one or two of the most important things we need to see out of forthcoming legislation from Congress?

CHRISTIAN BRANEON: Well, you know, we need to make sure that folks that currently work in the fossil fuel industry, their jobs are protected so that they can continue, and then retire, and not have fear that they're going to lose their jobs. There may not be a whole lot of new jobs in the fossil fuel industry. We need to shift to renewable energy and clean energy. But I think we have to give folks, you know, some solace and make them not be overly concerned if they're going to lose their jobs. Also, as we create new jobs that are tied to infrastructure renewable energy and other technologies around adapting to climate change, we've got to prioritize marginalized and vulnerable communities. We've got to tie training for those jobs to communities that are vastly affected by climate change. Those jobs should actually benefit those communities in terms of resilience to climate change as well as actual jobs and actual employment. So I think that's a really critical element, I would say, that we need to include.

RICK NEWMAN: Katharine Hayhoe, you are based in Texas. So you are a climate activist in a red state with a lot of carbon energy. Is that plausible about what Christian just said to you? Do you think that would be a good sell to people in the carbon industries that we're going to find a way to protect your livelihood no matter how this goes?

KATHARINE HAYHOE: Well, I don't think we can find a way to protect the livelihood of the largest oil and gas companies in the world that have made their record fortunes off these fossil fuels. They're going to have to transition to new sources of energy.

RICK NEWMAN: But what about their workers?

KATHARINE HAYHOE: Their workers absolutely deserve a just transition. In some cases, they are already being rejiggered. And there's some companies that are actually doing this to transition their workers' skills in mining geologic exploration to look at things like the rare Earth minerals that you need for batteries. So some companies are already starting to transition to look at biofuels, to look at storage, to look at other issues like that. We also need to provide jobs in places like, say West Virginia, coal mining areas where people are part of an industry that has already been going downhill for 30 years, not because of climate action, just because it's a very old dirty and not very cheap way to get energy anymore.

But bringing in a manufacturing plant and saying, hey, there's retraining programs. That can be part of it, too. A just transition is really important. But we need that transition, because we will all pay the price if we don't.

RICK NEWMAN: Katharine Hayhoe and Christian Braneon, terrific conversation. Thanks for joining us today.